Laughing City

Will you buy the Beatles remasters?
I'm buying a box set
26%
 26%  [ 5 ]
I'll buy select individual albums
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
No
57%
 57%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 19

Author Message
wilsmith
Vintage Newbie


boone wrote:
The difference is, Rob, that you did a great job of expressing your personal opinion and that's something I can respect. It's also refreshing for you to admit that your opinion may be slightly biased, but that doesn't stop you from making up your own mind about it.

I didn't make any claims to what version of the album is better, I don't really love one more than another, I just get frustrated at hearing the vitriol aimed at Spector's version. Even if someone doesn't like it, it doesn't deserve the amount of negative hype that it gets. I can't stand what I've heard from the Across the Universe movie soundtrack, and I think each song I'd heard was a mess, and sounded nothing like a Beatles song should have. Yet a lot of people love that album, and crap on Let it Be for what I perceive to be asinine reasons.

Our opinion is pretty much the same, really, Rob. We both are able to see both versions for what they are, and enjoy them as such. Sadly, you are literally the only person I've heard talk about the album without totally slagging Spector for what he did to it. That's why it gets frustrating, that's literally all I hear about it. There are no sources to cite about it, that's just all I ever hear.


Spector is a lightning rod, you gotta address that first and foremost:

There's the whole making John cut tracks at gunpoint stuff

The whole screwing his exwife and the Ronnettes out of ever being able to play those songs etc.

The whole killing that actress business.

He's not OJ infamous, but he's Courtney Love infamous. That stink only helps to tarnish his contributions to anybodies work.

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boone
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Maybe that's it. I guess it could just be a cheap shot. The musical equivalent of a fart joke.

Sigh.
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wilsmith
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In all seriousness, when the Spector murder went down I felt bad for Starsailor cause he'd just produced their record, and I just new that was it for them in the states.

The man is a psychotic killer, like that Anti-Brian Wilson. Couple that with the nature of John's death, it makes me even more uncomfortable.

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JBaker
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I expressed a sincere opinion about the songs as well.

Like I said, my main beef is with Across The Universe and The Long and Winding Road. I think the rest of the album is good. I think Get Back is one of the greatest Beatles songs ever.

But those two songs are MUCH better in their ...Naked versions. That's all I'm saying.

And I don't think there's anyone that thinks the Across The Universe soundtrack is great and Let It Be is garbage.

That soundtrack is awful. It takes upbeat awesome songs like All My Loving and tries to turn them into plodding ballads. It's just...yech...
I don't even wanna get started on that movie... Gah.....

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boone
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You're on the fast track to redemption, man. Wink I'm sure if you dug in deep, everybody would have an honest, personal opinion about it. That's just not the opinion that seems to come out right off the bat. I'm just saying, the world would be a lot less annoying without that unprovoked, hyperbolic spout off that most people start out with.

And I don't think that Phil Spector is a psycho killer. I think he is a very bipolar, disturbed man who needed help a long time ago. He seemed to be afraid to seem vulnerable, he was afraid to ask people to stay. Somebody would try to leave, and he'd try to force them to stay, instead of just asking. Pulling a gun on somebody because you're afraid they're going to leave you is not sociopathic, it's manic depressive. It's social anxiety. Unfortunately, if you do that for long enough, the gun will go off, someone will die, and you will be ruined. If he would have gotten help a long time ago, if someone would have gotten him help, this wouldn't have happened. It's really sad to me.
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wilsmith
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^you've got more empathy to spare than me. Being Bi-polar, diagnosed or not, is not a good thing, and those fits of mania, or Uber-depression are often the seeds of destruction for the sufferer. I've got a few in my family, and been friends with some. None have killed.

Here's a thought, a common phrase you hear:

If you're gonna pull a gun on someone you better be ready to use it.

That said, using that simple logic that a gun is not just a tool for intimidation, but a death threat incarnate, Phil being bi-polar isn't enough for me. Then again maybe he's tried to kill himself unsuccessfully many times in his depressive states? I don't know, but for now, he's a killer with mental issues.


oh, and good old wiki has this to offer:

"In contemporary culture, the term "psychotic" (or simply "psycho") is often incorrectly used interchangeably with "psychopathic" or "sociopathic", which actually describe a propensity to engage in violently antisocial behaviors and do not usually involve hallucinations or delusions."


so I should have called him a Psychopathic Killer. My bad.

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boone
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Psychopathic killers are tried for 2nd degree for accidentally shooting someone. Sorry, play again sometime.

Is he screwed up? Yes. Did he kill somebody? Yes. Should he pay the consequences for that? Definitely. Is he some unstoppable psycho killer? No, that's ridiculous.

Unfortunately, a lot of mental disease goes unchecked in this country, even in the rich and famous. Sadly, a lot of people have died because of it, whether from suicide, accidental murder, or manslaughter. To vilify somebody for that is just inane. To do that means that this could not have been prevented because he is a born-and-bred murderer, but if Phil Spector would have been getting treatment for the past forty years, this most definitely would not have happened.
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wilsmith
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^ We are splitting hairs again, I was referring to the Wiki distinction between Psycho/ Psychotic vs. Psychopathic that I posted (violent anti-social behavior, you know, like pointing guns at people because you're afraid they're gonna leave you).

And I'm not vilifying him for being mentally ill, I'm saying it's not textbook for all mentally ill people people to point guns at other people and threaten them. That's a special kind of problem there. Babies aren't born knowing how to intimidate and control people under the threat of a bullet wound.

And as is common, Phil Spector, like many with access, probably self medicated himself in place of proper treatment and got coddled by hangers on who lived off his fame. That's no excuse. Here's the full text of what I'm quoting from:

Superior Court Judge Larry Paul Fidler declined to allow Spector to remain free on bail pending sentencing, citing Spector's years-long "pattern of violence" involving firearms. Video Watch the lawyers give their views of the verdict »

"This was not an isolated incident," Fidler said, noting Spector's two previous firearm-related convictions from the 1970s. "The taking of an innocent human life, it doesn't get any more serious than that."

In closing arguments at the retrial, prosecutor Truc Do called Spector "a very dangerous man" who "has a history of playing Russian roulette with women -- six women. Lana just happened to be the sixth.


Phil Spector is a human being, like any one of us, and a flawed one, like all of us, but it went too far, and he developed some behaviors that were not right, I work in a school where there are quite a few children with the same and worse issues, in a district where a child with similar issues murdered an innocent girl in one of the buildings during the school day many years ago, he went to prison and killed someone there.

He was not like all the other kids, he was not born to kill, he learned a behavior and precautions were not adequate to prevent it going to far. That does not make him innocent or any less culpable. Just because you are oblivious to the consequences doesn't make you unconscious of your actions.

If you can't leave well enough alone, there are consequences. Phil Spector wasn't born a villain, but for now, he is one in my book. Maybe he'll reform in jail and do some grand humanitarian acts, maybe he'll just brood and fester till he passes on. We'll see, but in history, he is guilty as charged.

*exhales* Embarassed

It's been a long day and I have to get ready to negotiate with a bank on contract terms for buying a house, so I'm just in an argumentative state, plus, as I mentioned, I have a close relative who was killed in a questionable gun accident, so there's a bias with me as far as respecting the power of weapons...

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boone
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It'd be nice if his sentence included psychological help, but since that wasn't part of the defense, I doubt it'll be required. It'd be nice if he paid his debt to society, got some professional help, and still had enough time to produce at least one more beautiful album. But he's almost 70, and will probably die in prison, a mockery and a villain in the eyes of most people who still remember him.

That's just a tragedy all around.
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bigideas
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some reasons Paul wouldn't totally know what was going on:

Let It Be was recorded/filmed before the Abbey Road sessions.
everyone agreed it wasn't releasable at the time.

Beatles break up.
Paul is working on his self titled, recorded mostly at his home i believe.
i guess they agree to try to salvage and release something from the Let it Be era.

i take it Paul wasn't around, so they could do whatever they wanted to it.

it has John Lennon making fun of Paul's songs on the record - on a Beatles record - leading into the music. think how crazy that is - what if Stacy got pissed at Sherri and when she didn't know she recorded speaking intros making fun of it. if they were doing it together why wouldn't there be some of Paul talking making fun at John's songs (he did it later on The Girl is Mine with MJ)? i don't know if Paul's thoughts on that are anywhere, but i doubt he loved it.

i think Paul ended up releasing McCartney on the same day as Let it Be came out, so that pissed the other 3 off, too.

i'm trying to think of an analogy -

what if two people get married and they film the marriage.
then later they divorce.
then one person takes the video and overdubs a mean commentary on top, "man, she looks really fat in her wedding dress," etc..

but then this video was given to all their friends as the official version of what their wedding was like - i guess technically you'd have to Eternal Sunshine their brains and then insert the new version to duplicate Let it Be.

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Last edited by bigideas on Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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wilsmith
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boone wrote:
It'd be nice if his sentence included psychological help, but since that wasn't part of the defense, I doubt it'll be required. It'd be nice if he paid his debt to society, got some professional help, and still had enough time to produce at least one more beautiful album. But he's almost 70, and will probably die in prison, a mockery and a villain in the eyes of most people who still remember him.

That's just a tragedy all around.


I gotta hand it to you, you really appreciate that man's gift and work, and humanity to extend that much empathy.

I hope Kanye doesn't read these threads in the LC...

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JBaker
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Bigideas, I never took all the talking before the Paul songs as John trying to insult him.
John was a really goofy dude and would do a lot of things like that to try and make Paul laugh during performances and music videos.

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boone
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bigideas wrote:
some reasons Paul wouldn't totally know what was going on:

Let It Be was recorded/filmed before the Abbey Road sessions.
everyone agreed it wasn't releasable at the time.

Beatles break up.
Paul is working on his self titled, recorded mostly at his home i believe.
i guess they agree to try to salvage and release something from the Let it Be era.

i take it Paul wasn't around, so they could do whatever they wanted to it.

it has John Lennon making fun of Paul's songs on the record - on a Beatles record - leading into the music. think how crazy that is - what if Stacy got pissed at Sherri and when she didn't know she recorded speaking intros making fun of it. if they were doing it together why wouldn't there be some of Paul talking making fun at John's songs (he did it later on The Girl is Mine with MJ)? i don't know if Paul's thoughts on that are anywhere, but i doubt he loved it.

i think Paul ended up releasing McCartney on the same day as Let it Be came out, so that pissed the other 3 off, too.

i'm trying to think of an analogy -

what if two people get married and they film the marriage.
then later they divorce.
then one person takes the video and overdubs a mean commentary on top, "man, she looks really fat in her wedding dress," etc..

but then this video was given to all their friends as the official version of what their wedding was like - i guess technically you'd have to Eternal Sunshine their brains and then insert the new version to duplicate Let it Be.

It's entirely possible he had no idea what was going on, but I really don't understand why. It'd make more sense if he did know what was going on, but was too busy with his own album to be arsed to check in on any recordings, then regretted it when he heard what was made of it.

As far as the spoken intros, I guess McCartney didn't care for them, since he took them off of the "Naked" album, but I haven't heard of him resenting them for making fun of his songs. McCartney was known for being pretty insulting to his bandmates (apparently all in good fun, though), so he'd seem like kind of a jerk if he could dish it out, but couldn't take it. He does seem to portray himself as the Sensitive Beatle, though.

On the other hand, take a look at this video right here. This was recorded during the recording of The Beach Boys' Smile. It was well known that Mike Love quite audibly hated the album because it didn't have any singles, but moreso because he hated VanDyke Parks' lyrics, and probably even moreso because Brian Wilson was becoming the leader of the band, and not co-writing with him anymore. Him taking the time to slag off "Heroes and Villains" on tape would be a pretty jerk move, right? Except this recording was written by Brian Wilson, and Brian was apparently cracking up in the control room the whole time. So, even in bad situations where people hate each other, it's not impossible to have a bit of a sense of humor about it. We can't always assume.
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rmlawrence
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boone wrote:
The difference is, Rob, that you did a great job of expressing your personal opinion and that's something I can respect. It's also refreshing for you to admit that your opinion may be slightly biased, but that doesn't stop you from making up your own mind about it.

I didn't make any claims to what version of the album is better, I don't really love one more than another, I just get frustrated at hearing the vitriol aimed at Spector's version. Even if someone doesn't like it, it doesn't deserve the amount of negative hype that it gets. I can't stand what I've heard from the Across the Universe movie soundtrack, and I think each song I'd heard was a mess, and sounded nothing like a Beatles song should have. Yet a lot of people love that album, and crap on Let it Be for what I perceive to be asinine reasons.

Our opinion is pretty much the same, really, Rob. We both are able to see both versions for what they are, and enjoy them as such. Sadly, you are literally the only person I've heard talk about the album without totally slagging Spector for what he did to it. That's why it gets frustrating, that's literally all I hear about it. There are no sources to cite about it, that's just all I ever hear.


Well, I think it's impossible for anyone to say their opinions are always completely unbiased. Obviously our opinions are shaped by our experiences and upbringing, but I'm specifically referring to what we read/learn/hear about a topic and the effect that has on our opinions about that topic. Of course, I'm really only able to speak about my own perception. Personally, I can never differentiate what is really my own opinion (based on facts I've gathered) from "my own" opinion absorbed from others. It seems impossible for anyone to differentiate, but that's only because I am unable to do so. Regardless, it's still my opinion in the sense that it is the one that I possess. The manner in which I acquired it seems irrelevant.

That's one of the reasons politics frustrate me so much. So many people seem to subscribe to a dogma without honestly considering all the facts. And if they have (which most will probably say they do), how do I really know that's the case? The insane thing is that I probably do the same!

Thinking about it makes my head spin. Ash can attest that I've spent probably an hour just typing this relatively short response.

Regarding my not slagging Spector, I really am very uneducated when it comes to music. I don't know about history or technical aspects. I don't know about influences or context. I just know that I either like songs or I don't. I'm reluctant to call ANYTHING garbage or awful (even though I often do). I'll readily admit that I do or don't like a song and I might even be able to give reasons why, but I don't like to stray away from more personal statements by saying things like "that song is horrible." I feel I'm unable to give legitimate facts to back up a statement like that. So yeah... no Spector insults here.

OK... I have to get to bed again. So much for getting to sleep before 11 tonight. I hate that I obsess over these posts so much. I'm not even going to proofread again for like the 10th time. If there are mistakes... oh well.

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boone
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Good contributions, Rob. I guess whenever I start missing you around here, I'd better start saying something to make you mad. Wink
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