Laughing City

Do you feel like you are getting (or got) your Money's Worth out of your College Experience?
Yes
27%
 27%  [ 3 ]
No
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
In Progress: So far, so good
27%
 27%  [ 3 ]
In Progress: Not looking so good
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
I still have dreams that I'm late for class, & there's a test I didn't know about!
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 11

Author Message
wilsmith
Vintage Newbie


It's finals/ term paper season, and the fact that I am OLD and Professorial now, and don't have to procrastinate and then be a "clutch hitter" by doing all-nighters makes the sleep I get, or don't, just being so out of school mode it should be a sin makes me empathize and pity those of you feeling the artificial stress that is Academic Rigor. It's a psychological construct, false jeopardy, a ploy to elicit compliance.

So yeah, as alluded to earlier, I'm gonna rag on the College System. Let's blast em'! Mr. Green

My Contentions:

It's like obedience school. You pay to be taught how to do what people want you to, and are not allowed to stop paying to attend until you meet their requirements. By and large, you are only taught the basics of how to learn on your own, the teachers don't usually do a lot of teaching, so it's even more of a hustle. The most touted Profs. are working on getting Journal Articles published, Research Grants, and Scholarly Texts, so teaching is less a priority given Unis give tenure to said Profs. who are Academics in status and pursuit, and not so much classroom teachers. You undergrad degree has less value relative to what you know, but does show you are willing to humble yourself, or being creative/ cunning to meet said requirements.

Most people are either "In College" or College Students. It's hard to be both, and only the latter graduate and move on, the prior are perpetually enrolled, trying to finish, or trying to keep their loans deferred, never really using their studies for anything other than conversation pieces when they are being social. I know cause me and a lot of my friends were "In College" for a long time, and the only time I was a college student was when I absolutely had to be, so like 3 semesters out of the 8 I was in school full time, and 4 of the 5 semesters when I came back part-time to finish my BA. That's what happens when you start with No Major, declare one just so the Prof. will let you be added to his full class, then realize 2 years later you want a job when you graduate, not after you get a Phd (hence never finishing my Anthropology & Sociology degrees after completing all the course work, sans a core requirement Mad , stupid Latin classes, never should have took them, or at least should have taken them seriously )

If you had lunch or dinner with a professor once a week and picked up the bill at a local deli (where our profs. ate) all they talk about is what they have spent the MAJORITY of their life studying, accept more candidly, especially if they're drinkers. I did this on more than one occasions, and regretted it. Why??? Because it would have been cheaper to just take said Prof. out for a meal over the course of a semester than pay for their class, and I would have learned MORE. Again, it's a hustle, and a good one. I had a friend who worked out where he just sat in on Cornell West's classes at Harvard after meeting him, sans auditing them. So he got the knowledge for free, with no attendance requirement, and duh, no credits. But the truth is, Libraries are free, Knowledge is there for the taking, all you need is a good list of books to check out and time to read and confer with someone who understands the subject to clear up any confusion you have. In my job, we hire techs based on skill and knowledge, no degree required, cause these days Kids know CPUs an Networks up and down before they have their HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA, let alone Associates and BS degree, and Technology changes so quickly, you have to either learn on the job, or constantly take classes to keep up. That being the case, why is it the Tech field, one of the most rigorous and robust these days, "gets it" in terms of how knowledge is acquired and perpetuated and the other fields are still beholden to an antiquated system that exploits people's expectation to pay for knowledge that is free???

The residential environments on and off-campus at most schools I've been to and read about suffer from the YOUTH PROBLEM. It's UNNATURAL to have 1000s of Adolescents and Post-Adolescents congregating with minimal authority and oversight. It really is the blind leading the blind as far as peer pressure and people taking undue liberties with themselves and others emotionally and physically. I know this because I did lots of dumb malarkey in school, and graciously declined doing MORE that my friends did not, and many regretted and saw wiser Once The Were Out Of School, and left to their own devices without the Peanut Gallery of nebulous friends who were really only in their peer group because it was more of a dating pool, as the friendships eroded as soon as people started coupling.

Fun is Grand, being spontaneous is exciting, but you don't have to be NAIVE or SHEEPISH to be lead to or enjoy either experience. But so many of the victims I knew in college, in the emotional, and in some cases legal sense, were prayed upon because they were under the impression that consequences were mean, and that they shouldn't given them much thought.


So How do you feel about College?
Share your rants, Vent away, tis' the season!

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JBaker
Vintage Newbie


Hard for me to vote for a few reasons...

1) My parents paid for my college in full. Therefore, I can't put much into the "value" area.
2) I work in a career where your undergraduate degree is practically completely inconsequential. Your portfolio is the only thing that really matters, and my undergraduate studies didn't really help it.

That said, I enjoyed the time I spent in college. I had fun with my friends and making new friends. I went to a school with a beautiful campus and a great football team in a small college town. So it was a very all-american college experience I guess.

On the day I graduated from college, I said to my parents, "It's just a dumb piece of paper that I need, and this was the experience I had to go through to get it. I would be more qualified with 6 months of on the job training than I am from 4 years of college."

And I still feel that way. But I do think it was a time I needed to kind of be irresponsible for a little bit longer and realize I need to get my responsibilities in order.

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mr pine
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i only went to community college and have an associates degree.

it is not hard for me to find work. but it is hard to find work with decent pay.

i would like my kids to go to college, but i would like them to go in a specialized area where the job skills are needed as opposed to something
generic.

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Saellys
Vintage Newbie


I feel quite fortunate to have had a great college experience, first at a community college where I got my Associate of Arts, and then at a private university where I got my BA in writing. I had pretty consistently awesome professors and classes that interested me (though I admit in most cases their value was more as a forum for discussion than a place to gain new knowledge). And I had very little exposure to the bureaucratic nonsense that can really sour an academic career. I look back on my college time with nothing but fondness. Now I have a lot less student loan debt than most people; I've also had exactly two jobs that involved writing in any capacity, but that's mainly because I couldn't be arsed to pursue writing as a career. I chose it because it interested me, not because it was something I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

Fast forward a few years, when I got to watch my husband go back to school after leaving the Navy. He went to a state university and basically got hosed--his advisor would tell him something completely contradictory every time they met, and there was one very tense semester where the university announced they were going to cut his major and his minor (among dozens of others). Due to massive public outcry they postponed that act and he managed to finish his degree in geosciences. He now works for an insurance software company, a job he started part time while attending grad school. He dropped out when he got promoted to full-time, which I believe was an exceedingly good decision, since grad school is no guarantee of anything now. But geosciences is more or less his passion, and now he wonders if he'll ever get a chance to pursue it again.

So, two different reasons for going to college and two very different experiences. I don't feel qualified to call universities fundamentally useless in the modern era, especially since I believe that as a way for young people to move on from high school and experience a different way of interacting with each other, they're absolutely indispensable. Would it be cool if college was free? Absolutely. But I don't think anyone who thirsts for knowledge should just resort to being an autodidact. Independent research is important, but there's still all kinds of benefit to be gained from an educational system that requires proof of a certain proficiency.

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wilsmith
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I'm not inditing Higher Education, just the current Institutionalized structure. When I get more time I'm going to talk about the Economics of the current university system and how it's a Cash grab and a corporate shill that pretends to be otherwise for merit purposes.

I would also argue that 18-25 are generally good years to be unmarried and without children to have fun in life, and though I did have good experiences "In College" it was not because I was a student, but because I was young and had young friends who liked to live. We could have done it anywhere, it just so happens the friends I made were fellow students at Truman when I was there. Low and behold when I come home and meet people with like interests NONE of them went to Truman with me, and yet we get along like gangbusters because of Who We Are, not because of whether we went to the same school, or school at all.

Now, as for employment, working as a student employee at Truman prospered me more than my degree. I got hired on with Bell/ ATT in one position that started at $15 an Hour a year removed from quitting school a foreign language requirement away from BAs in Sociology & Anthropology (combined major at Truman at the time) and Communications. Having college experience was a plus, but the job was in Billing. I withdrew from training because the schedule wouldn't allow me to complete my degree part time at UM-St. Louis and took a job in their regular call center, and was literally working with High School Students (as well as adults) for $9. This was in 2000. Coming from being a student employee making minimum wage at Truman, and limited to only working 10hrs / wk (Truman's rules) or off campus for not much more around Kirksville, $9.00 was like hitting the lottery if I could finish my degree. This was just as the Service Industry was starting to take over as the primary source of US employment, and before much of it was being outsourced off-shore.

Okay, about money:

The majority of college students take some sort of Financial aid, predominantly student loans:

Federal
Undergrad cap: roughly 22K
after age 24: and additional 22K

The government has to service these loans, and if they go into default, that's more debt the Gvt. is carrying. Now, a student can consolidate those loans with a...

Private
caps At Bank's discretion

We are talking Billions (if not Trillions) of Dollars here. And that's just in the payment of debt for fees and tuition, not any of the other contracted services and revenue streams.

Same to the Publishing companies who manufacture text books.
Same to the computing companies that supply PCs, Macs, Linux Boxes, Servers etc.

Students do not receive credit counseling of any sort regarding their loans, only Home Econ level talks about basic budgeting if their lucky during orientation.

Student costs (tuition, room and board, meal plans, text) are grossly overpriced for services and goods rendered, most contracted with no input from the purchasers.

University's received State and Federal funds to operate beyond private contributions from individuals and corporate entities, as well as revenues from merchandising, attendance from athletic (and joint revenues that come from being part of the NCAA etc) and arts events.

These schools decision process is handled by Boards of Curators that make important capital spending and hiring decisions, and are breeding grounds for nepotism and cronyism. In some cases University systems align their decisions in regards to tax funded plans based on private corporate interests to ingratiate themselves with their corporate affiliates.

When a student emerges degree in hand or drop out, they have in effect, subsidized our banking systems and any number of federally funded gvt. contractors or large scale global contractors, with no guaranty of a return whatsoever. In some cases the student may or may not have gotten anything from the academic realm of college life.

Universities are not held to the standards that our k-12 system is, where failure to produce well educated and employable students is the measure of success. The enrollments continue to increase, admittance standards are lowered, and fees are raised, all the while academic standards are lowered. College is pitched as a "Must-Do" which drives up enrollment, but to what end for the student? The simple reality is that college is a volume business. They can take on as many as possible and profit from it, because as much as reputations are a factor, it only takes a few good scholars and notable professors to make a School of... or Academic Department reputable. What about all the other 1000s & 10s of 1000s at said Universities or said numbers of years? Oh, but they'll take their money without batting an eye and zero remorse for the incursion of debt they will impose on said individuals.

I see college as a business transaction that is one-sided for the ill informed and unprepared. The life of a 17-26 year old ( generic straight through Phd age span ) will be the prime of their adult youth if they choose to live like young adults. I don't think the University system has a legitimate interest in making the most of that, and it's an afterthought, hence their hands off approach to addressing the improprieties that go on on-campus, and the under reporting of crime statistics across the board institutionally, particularly in recruitment materials distributed to prospective students and families. They are selling the illusion that you can't have the same experience taking a part time job, getting a room mate, and living it up in the meantime going to concerts and parties, starting a band, writing or painting, doing theater etc.

Consider how many of our "Megastars" are High School drop outs... and all the minor ones who only have Honorary Degrees at best. It's the best hustle going.

I am only taking this angle in the conversation because I still haven't forgotten all the friend I had who cried over B- minuses, the students I know who were sexually assaulted or taken advantage of by fellow students or staff, the ones who died on that crap Highway 63, the ones who attempted suicide, or had nervous breakdowns, the dozens that were on mood altering meds that abused drugs & alcohol on top of it, and disgusting attitude the university implicitly promoted towards the citizens of the town that housed it. Townies a epithet known nationwide. So yeah, I am only scratching the surface of my contempt. But the contempt is directed at the way the current University system is structured like the Industrial Military Complex as far as the Billions (honestly Trillions) of dollars it pumps into the Banking system and corporate sector with little to show for it in the general populace or the economy.

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mad_sam_purple'ead
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I refuse to vote on the poll, because I'll be voting based on the U.K system, which is a different system, although the large principles are the same, I imagine.


Overall, I think the system is fine, if not good. Particularly in Scotland, where we don't have to pay anything but our living costs. This means that there is greater accessibility to higher education, which I think is a good thing, because traditional universities were very elitist. According to Sir William Topaz McGonnagall, the creation of the University of Dundee was essentially a utopian ideal:

"The College is most handsome and magnificent to be seen,
And Dundee can now almost cope with Edinburgh or Aberdeen,
For the ladies of Dundee can now learn useful knowledge
By going to their own beautiful College."
(from, The Inaugeration of the University College).

I think McGonnagal is to be trusted: his method of poetry writing was, "see the thing for what it is, write it as it is, don't add description, and by gum, four lines to a stanza, and it must rhyme!"

I think Scotland still has that ideal in mind. Also, anyone from within Europe can study here, without having to pay tuition fees, which are double that of those for UK students (anyone from Northern Ireland, Wales and England have to pay tuition fees). Which I think stands at about 9000 per term, which is as much as a private school, so not a huge deal if you can pay.

But at a private school, you can (and should) expect a holistic teaching style, where subjects link, and where teachers and other staff aim to help you grow up into an adult, and not just pass exams to get into university (all though this is, obviously, a major factor in private schools). Certainly this was the philosophy of my school, and I thoroughly appreciate it now. I hated school, but the teachers did really well to instill, not so much knowledge (although they would've done that had I actually paid attention and done homework in on time), but the love of learning - and the ability to teach thyself. And reference Harvard referencing.

I quickly realised that those three things were incredibly useful when I actually came to university. As I said, I hated school, and I didn't want to go university, because I thought: "why?" All anyone else could answer was "why not?" To which the answer, obviously, was: Because I don't want to spend four years studying a subject I'm not particularly interested in, if at the end of the day, because of the job market, all I would be able to do is, for example, temp. That's if I make it through the degree." To which a response was "but you get more money if you have a degree". But I knew too many people who went to uni cause it's the done thing, dropped out or changed course multiple times, and never settled. I also knew of too many who got a general degree and ended up temping.

The short of it is, general academia degrees suck.

But we need universities for subjects that require specialisms: practical degrees. The BA (Hons) Social Work was created because of a need to protect social worker's jobs - IE, you can only get a social work job if you hold a degree in it. I agree with that.

As far as the system goes, well, with Social Work, you're locked into it, and you don't get any choice as far as modules, which makes total sense.
With general degrees, especially at traditional universities (especially st. andrews), you start off with three subjects, and end up with certificates in two, and a degree in the other. Fact - my mum (geography student) and dad (german and french student), were in the same philosophy class. Which, in a somewhat existential protest, neither attended very much.



Short of it: i have no qualms about the current system. I don't know what you'd replace it with, if you could. It's too old a system to change dramatically.

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wilsmith
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^ The Missouri State constitution had an article that articulated that our state Universities only charge maintenance fees, not tuition, as well. It was neglected and the state started charging standard tuition. In the late 90s someone sued the State after discovering the article of the state constitution forbidding tuition for state residents, so the state revised the constitution, and stopped calling it tuition, calling them Course Fees instead. Neutral

Scotland is an honorable place in that regard, Missouri is not.

In regard to Holistic learning, our Liberal Arts schools are oriented in that manner, but the degree of "Fluff" coursework offered to fulfill the cosmopolitan Core Curriculum (aka Non-Major Emphasis of Study course work) makes many feel like they are being forced to waste their money and time because it's inconsequential given there are restrictions in class sizes and scheduled times that prevent students from selecting the courses they prefer or find most relevant to their academic interests, or unduly rigorous when taken in context of their purposes for being in college & pursuing a degree. Here they find so many ways to make you spend money and time in counter-productive ways that have nothing to do with Epistemology. It should only take 1 semester to learn how to learn, beyond that, it's redundant. The amount of time & money one has to spend to learn their field is entirely arbitrary. The scheduling and curriculum fluctuates at the whimsy of Professors, Department Heads, and Administrators. What may be taught in a 3 day seminar for professionals is taught over the course of 2 years to Students. Why, because here there is a incentive to extend the learning process because time=money.

In short, the U. S. academic system is far removed from the Utopian ideal of the University that dates back to the Sophists. My other major gripe is that it isn't even living up to the standard of the Country Club elitist concept of College much anymore because Cash Rules Everything Around Me....

I'm not endorsing the antiquated "Young Man's Finishing School" conception of college, or the idea that it was a way of corralling young elites for coupling, given Universities weren't Coed in the beginning either. The institutionalization of class/income-based affirmative action (it's not just raciall-based contrary to popular opinion) financial aid to elevate the working class & poor via education in institutions once only reserved for the affluent has undermined that elitist exclusivity to a point (you still have the Greek System and Private Universities that discriminate legally), but ultimately the business community goes where the money is, and corporate interests have manhandled our university system because Government funding contracts are Lucrative business, and you are dealing with a compromised customer base given the social and political emphasis on higher education yielding better life chances and professional prospects. And as many are pointing out, there might be false causation at work there. But like I said before, having a degree means you are a compliant person, and employers are looking for that, so in that regard it helps a little. It says "I have been house broken and will obey commands to prevent being denied my wants and needs, Woof!" Razz

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oathmeal
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Well I got two scholarships that covered my entire tuition plus a little extra cash in my pockets each semester so it's definitely a good deal. As far as the professors not caring my University is a small one so you get a lot of one on one time with the professors. Most of them do quite a bit of teaching as well.
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mr pine
Vintage Newbie


has anyone decided to point out the fact that this is a thread about the benefits of college and yet wil used impromper grammar in the title (it should be your thoughs, not you thoughts).

unless it was cleverly put in on purpose?

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wilsmith
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Good eyes. I'm not big on spell checking myself unless I am really motivated to reread, as any person bored enough to read my posts for spelling or grammar would find. If Firefox doesn't RedLine it, I let it fly unless I'm rereading during an edit to add content or remember what the heck someone is referring to that I said.

Also, there's a character limit on Subject Headings, and I have to make them fit. I had trouble with this one, and revised it, and rephrased it before anyone had replied, and missed that.

oathmeal wrote:
Well I got two scholarships that covered my entire tuition plus a little extra cash in my pockets each semester so it's definitely a good deal. As far as the professors not caring my University is a small one so you get a lot of one on one time with the professors. Most of them do quite a bit of teaching as well.


A classmate of mine actually made money going to school. He was on scholarship, and had work study as well. They needed him to work more hours than he needed to cover his student costs, so he came out ahead. His junior year he used the money to invest in a few stocks. By the time he was a senior he was being flown out for interviews with IBM and other big computer and software firms. This was in 98', during the Tech boom, before the crash. Others bought cars with their refund checks on their loans and what-not, which I thought was silly then, but considering the super low interest rates, and the utility of a car when trying to get jobs in rural and suburban areas around our state, it was a pretty smart move. Same with those who bought computers etc. I looked at it as stuff, not as an investment. I was always in a bind with my funds, and didn't think I had room to splurge on those types of things. I'd done without all my life, but honestly, had I gotten a computer, college would have been WAY easier, just from a paper composition perspective, and doing research, even in the dial-up days of the web when I started school.

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DRMS_7888
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Wil,

It seems like many of your misgivings against the University system are structured around the liberal arts. Don't get me wrong, I like studying humanities, psychology, and musicology, but it shouldn't be an expectation that serious study in these fields will land you a job outside of academia. I think too few students realize that before choosing a major, only to find out $40,000+ later that they had a great time studying about their new hobbies. In the quest for knowledge and human advancement, I think the liberal arts are important. However, they aren't what drive the economy or provide service to people. Technical degrees and certification/licensure type programs are what students should be taking if they are seeking more than just knowledge in college. I feel like I have somewhat of a bearing on this, because I was very liberal artsy in undergrad, only to move to a certified profession in health care in grad school. Is it the university's responsibility to communicate this dichotomy between absolute knowledge and practical knowledge? I don't think so.

While there is certainly mismanagement in any large university system's financial structures, and willful cooperation with third-party exploiters like food service contracts, I've personally had mostly positive experiences with my universities. Most of my professors, whether they were research focused or not, were good communicators in their fields. Also, I am able to avoid many of the extraneous costs of the university system (on campus housing, food, bookstore prices). These are awful, exploitative practices, but they are wholly avoidable to the perceptive.

I think the "cut-off" for public education in the United States isn't helping us in terms of creating a empowered workforce, or a workforce without crushing debt. Expecting kids straight out of high school to pay $20,000 a year for more school is simply not realistic. If college tuition were funded by the state, students would be admitted more on the merit of their own abilities, rather than the financial capability of their lineage. Of course, I think liberal arts programs should be limited to the amount of tuition waivers they receive compared to technical/licensure programs (I mean really, how many PhDs in psychology do we need?). It doesn't mean you can't study liberal arts, simply that you might have to pay for it if you are only after the knowledge function. Better yet, they should go to a library (as Wil suggested).

The idea of cutting education funding, either on a state or national level, is short-sighted and crushing to existing college students. My own state (Minnesota), is attempting to balance its budget deficit by historic cuts to public education. By reducing funding to my school (University of Minnesota), they are simply forcing to the University to increase tuition. Essentially, they are trying to balance the budget by increasing my level of debt. Now, who can afford to be taxed more: college students with no savings or any substantial source of income, or the richest 5% of the population? I'm not a socialist by any means, but progression taxation is so popular because it proportionally spreads the burdan on those who will be least affected by it. Blah blah blah, incentive is still there. Furthermore, a recent study out of Pennsylvania found that for every $1 Minnesota invested at UMN, they received $13 back in total economic gain.

Don't be an idiot.

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mad_sam_purple'ead
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mr pine wrote:
(it should be your thoughs, not you thoughts).


Don't you mean, "(it should be your thoughts, not you thoughts)"? Wink

ok, I'm just being facetious.

wilsmith wrote:
It should only take 1 semester to learn how to learn, beyond that, it's redundant


Surely it depends on what you're studying.

A large part of my life as a Social Worker should be spent reading journals and books, keeping up to date with theories and research, finding new ways of working etc. In that case, I see the method of assessment, whereby we're given an essay per module (or in some cases, an essay and a presentation), as pretty sound, because it's not so much about what we know as about how we apply what we know to cases and real life scenarios - and also knowing how and where to find information!
What's frustrating is when this reading becomes more important than the lectures. in second year I learnt pretty much diddlysquat from the lecture in Risk and Protection (which they were going to call Childcare Risk and Protection. Go figure why they didn't). This year, though, we've had introductions to every sphere of social work possible, which has given us a broad overview of theories.

Also, some courses have the first week as "learning to learn". I wish mine did, because I'd been out of education for two years and had forgotton how I learn! so that sort of negates university being about being how to learn...

I think what I was getting at in my earlier post is that my high school did a very good job at instilling me a desire to learn, as much as actually teaching me stuff. You gotta be motivated at university - spoon feeding is not cool.

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wilsmith
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Mad Sam,

We were working on our posts concurrently, so I posted & there yours was. Again, I agree with what you're sharing as far as the teaching styles and content types you have to deal with in University courses. The practice at the schools I've attend was to allow the underclassmen 1 or 2 class sessions to go over the syllabus and expectations (aka learning how you will be taught in that course, or not taught, in the case of courses where lectures had little to do with what you were tested on, or expected to write about).

As far as learning to learn, I should have been more articulate in the expression of my idea. Learning how to study, is something that is Universally applicable to all course work, akin to the scientific method, or Bloom's Taxonomy. It's a basic thing, like learning how to read for comprehension or retention, skim for key points, take notes, and compose questions for the professor to clear up any confusion you have about the subject at hand. For the sciences, the same applies to learning about methods in mathematics, chemistry, etc. And sadly, most text books have an introduction that explains "How to use this text". The nuts and bolts of learning how much to read how often, in the appropriate learning environment, is the foundation of study. Maybe I'm hardcore or something, but I feel like a person only needs to learn about that once. Now as in your case, and mine, learning how to personalize the learning process is an individual experience that varies over time as our tolerances and abilities wax and wain, so we have to recondition ourselves from time to time, but that's not because we've forgotten how to learn, we are just adapting what we know about learning to our current disposition/ conditioning.


And I was gonna poke fun at Mr. Pine's thoughs instead of thoughts, but that would be the pot calling the kettle black, so thanks for doing that Wink


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay DRMS,

I am right with you on all your points, but are you calling the people trying to cut University funds & manipulating the tax code Idiotic, or me Confused

Maybe it comes off like that's my implicit argument, but it isn't, if that's what you thought.

As far as Liberal Arts, yes, expecting employment that is field specific and lucrative is delusional, but I'm finding that even practical fields of study are having hard times finding work. I know people with Engineering and IT degrees struggling to find work, as well as a number of people with BAs & MAs in Education (Truman has an accelerated master's program), and Counseling, that have struggled mightily to find work in those fields. One teacher could only get a ISS/ Hall Monitor job, and now works for the Social Security Dept. where he does case management, so much for teaching History in High School. Meanwhile, at my job, I work with a number of certified teachers who are working as building aids cause they can't find teaching jobs in our district which is relatively large for a suburban municipality of a midsized U. S. city.

Most of the people I know who are in higher level professional positions requiring specialized skills, are there by merit of experience, and not degrees. My former bosses at UM-St. Louis were mid and upper level management with 20+ years of experience moving up from Custodians all the way to Plant Directors, with not a Masters, and in some cases a Associates to be found. But if those positions are vacated and opened to the public, you can guarantee an MBA or the academic equivalent in a related field for any new applicant, even though that is obviously not necessary to do the job if you've had the experience.

Like I said, working in IT, they will hire you out of high school if you have the skills. It happened in my current job, and it happened 10 years ago at UM-St. Louis when one of my coworkers in the labs there was noticed for hacking the University's ghosted Image to solve some coding problems so a student's project would work. He'd been in school for 3 months out of high school and was promoted from part time student employee to System Administrator by the Fourth, and has held the job sense. I don't know if he even went back to school, given his tuition reduction would have him paying 25% of what students paid. The killer bit is this: all his coworkers who spend their shifts playing Diablo over the school's network were still taking classes, paying tuition, so they could graduate with a degree and NOT be able to get his job. Confused

That is idiotic

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Last edited by wilsmith on Fri May 13, 2011 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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DRMS_7888
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wilsmith wrote:
are you calling the people trying to cut University funds & manipulating the tax code Idiotic, or me Confused


The former. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'll make a real reply after my last final today (holla!)

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wilsmith
Vintage Newbie


Thanks for clearing that up case it read like this to me:

DRMS wrote:


Wil,

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Don't be an idiot.


Laughing

Good luck on the final.

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