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How do you feel about eating meat?
Meh, meat is meat, I'll eat whatever.
51%
 51%  [ 15 ]
It bothers me but I don't really know what to do about it.
17%
 17%  [ 5 ]
I only eat grass fed, free range meat and don't support the commerical meat industry
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
I don't eat any meat at all.
27%
 27%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 29

Author Message
mr pine
Vintage Newbie


yeah

honestly, from my limited experince with the world, men struggle with pride and apathy.
women struggle with contentment and self image. and all those manifest themselves in different ways.

but i totally get that switch. I had a friend who was a girl. and i never knew when i talked to her if i was gonna get the one that was so happy to see me, the one who never wanted to see me again, the one who would do anything for me, or the one who was so selfish. I realized I couldn't handle it anymore, so I stopped all together. It was hard, but it had to be done for my sake.
with family, it's a little harder.

but i feel you man.

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wilsmith
Vintage Newbie


I'll drink to that.

Oh, so check this out:

I've been eating these Kangaroo (brand) honey wheat pitas. Really taste, filled with mushrooms and spinach, or peppers and cheese. Well I was buying precooked white meat chicken to use in them cause I ran out of beans, and was uncomfortable with always trying to rush and use the mushrooms before the started to turn. Well, I got guilty and bought mushrooms and made them that way again...

Then I stopped by my mom's after a guitar lesson I was teaching got cancelled and my stepdad offered me Meat Loaf and mashed potatoes. Now I don't like meatloaf, but my mom doesn't cook that often, and they Waste leftovers all the time, fridge full of old food going bad. I used to clean it out when I went by, no I try and finish stuff off for them. Mainly bread so I was making a lot of grilled cheese w/ jalapenos when I stopped by. Well, part of me, let's say the Napoleon Shagnon participant observer brand Ethnography student, feels that it's a show of genuine love and affection to consume as your tribe consumes in a show of solidarity, at least as far as food is concerned.

So yeah, I ate the Meat Loaf. Again, I don't like red meat generally, particularly Meat Loaf (Food, singer alike). Anyway, it would just have to be the time my mom made the most Bombass Meatloaf EVER Laughing My Stepdad is a straight up Carnivore, his blood pressure & stroke at 47 years of age as evidence. He's done well in the 8 years since for the most part, but he even was like, "Yeah, I had to tell your mom that this was a really tasty meat loaf." It was delicious.

So, either she stumbled across a new recipe, or something in my subconscious & overly contrary id took a twisted pleasure in my caving and caused my to enjoy it in a sadistic way. I don't know, but it was definitely a "moment". And I had two turkey dogs at school lunch (grade school employee, old school cafeteria food by Aramark) today. It was that or a spicy chicken wrap of the pepperoni pizza.

So yeah, I try, but sometime I don't. Three cheers for projecting your own self-dissatifaction on others.

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cynlovescandy
Vintage Newbie


How did this turn into a gender thing? Laughing
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wilsmith
Vintage Newbie


I switched it back though Cool

and anytime you talk about food and feelings it's going to get all Bambi eventually, and Bambi begets sentimentality, which invokes FEELINGS, which brings up the whole Mars and Venus thing, which brings up War and Romance, which brings up Killing for Love and Loving to Kill, which explain why Venison is so popular with hunters and Brokeback Mountain Types it's got everything! Very Happy


oh yes I did.

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inorbit
Laughing Citizen


having lurked a bit on this thread, finally got a few minutes and intended to post something about meat, vegetarianism, etc, only to find that convo ancient history. Oh well,

Carry on.
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cynlovescandy
Vintage Newbie


inorbit wrote:
having lurked a bit on this thread, finally got a few minutes and intended to post something about meat, vegetarianism, etc, only to find that convo ancient history. Oh well,

Carry on.


No, do it! This thread needs to be brought back. I like it.

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Sprocket
Vintage Newbie


I'm not so sure about this argument about the arbitrariness of choosing a cut-off point as a vegetarian (one does not eat meat, but does eat animal by-products) because most if not all moral decisions exist on a spectrum where an arbitrary cut-off point is made, but that doesn't mean that the spectrum should be thrown out with the bath water, or so to speak.

As for being a hypocrite... well I'd rather judge a man by his actions that his intentions. Whether done for fashion or done for more noble reasons, being vegetarian helps in a small way to limit the suffering of animals and not give money to an industry that is doing damage to the environmen. Same applies to Bono. Even if he does all that charity fund-raising for his ego, it still results in money being raised. In reverse, you can murder someone for what you deem to be moral reasons a la 'Crime and Punishment' but at the end of the day, you'll still have murdered someone.

P.S. http://youtu.be/JLwPXMedIaI

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tahruh
Vintage Newbie


freakinalex wrote:
Fun fact: Anything you eat has the potential to be dangerous. You could always choke on your food. Or you might potentially be allergic to that fruit you just ate. Also, any food item has the potential to be contaminated. And it's much more common that you would eat a raw vegetable that's been contaminated with something that could be killed by cooking it to the proper temperature than not cooking meat with that same bacteria. Cross-contamination is more common with meat, but it can still happen with veggies. Plus, if you eat too much fiber, which is heavily available in vegetables, you can get diarrhea, which can lead to dehydration. And also, drinking milk is bad for you, because even though it's full of calcium, it'll suck the iron right out of you. Some people are also born with deficiencies of certain enzymes that break down certain meats. That's much rarer with vegetables. But no human has the necessary enzymes to break down cellulose, which is a major component of a lot of veggies...


You say that like it's a bad thing. Insoluble fiber keeps your colon healthy by balancing the pH and removing toxic waste. Most Americans don't get enough fiber, and it certainly doesn't cause diarrhea, unless one's body has been so thoroughly deprived that it's a shock to their system. I get the point you were trying to make, but the fact is that plant-based diets are not only recommended to prevent various diseases, including cardiovascular, but also to treat them. Heart disease, as mentioned, is not statistically unlikely; rather, it's the leading cause of death in America.

mr pine wrote:
i mean if you feel you shouldn't eat that stuff, then why stop at the meat?
or some who eat chicken and fish, but not cow.
if you feel eating milk and cheese is ok why? i mean it shows that you feel
the cow is a viable food source.
also you can make the point that we are the only creatures that eat another animals milk. so you could say, convincingly, that there is no need to do that.


"Some who eat chicken and fish" = Not vegetarians.
Cheese is a product of milk, and milk can be extracted from an animal without suffering. I subscribe to the Hindu philosophy on that one (and many other things). That said, I personally have a very limited dairy intake.

mr pine wrote:
I think some do it just because it is a trendy thing people do in big cities because it makes them feel better about themsevles.


I think some people just become Christians because it's a trendy thing people do in small towns because it makes them feel better about themselves?

mr pine wrote:
if you are going to say you dont like it that they harm animals, then you should go the full nine and not eat any type of animal product or by product. not pick and choose. that, too me, seems asinine and like you are doing it just to do it. if you are going the full nine and not doing all that stuff great.


Get back to us when your personal life reflects that of the Duggar family's.


I don't see things in black and white, nor do I believe the "right thing" is always the most extreme option. I can, for instance, "own" a dog and not support bear-baiting.

Also, I appreciate Cyn and Uncreative's (if I remember correctly, you've come a long way Razz) "other team" perspectives!
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Saellys
Vintage Newbie


olimario wrote:
DRMS_7888 wrote:
It's very easy to get to the proper nutrients as a vegetarian. My body is more healthy than it has ever been, and one of the keys is a well-balanced vegetarian diet.


This isn't true at all. If it was easy malnutrition wouldn't be a serious issue among vegans and vegetarians.


Citation? Statistics? Research? Nah, don't worry, this is the Internet! Your opinions will do just fine.

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olimario
Laughing Citizen


Lots of cases of malnutrition in the children of vegans.
Typically from poorly planned vegan diets.

Still baffles my mind that people choose to restrict their diet away from what we were designed to eat. Clearly we are omnivores and our high functioning minds have become dependant on B12.

I have no problem with vegetarians and vegas, but I just don't understand why.
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sebas
Golly, Poster


olimario wrote:
Lots of cases of malnutrition in the children of vegans.
Typically from poorly planned vegan diets.


Where?

olimario wrote:

Still baffles my mind that people choose to restrict their diet away from what we were designed to eat. Clearly we are omnivores and our high functioning minds have become dependant on B12.


What is this "designed to eat" nonsense? Is it supposed to have some sort of evolutionary significance?

B12 is produced by microorganisms; supplements are readily available for use if a person is not eating enough foods that naturally contain it.

olimario wrote:

I have no problem with vegetarians and vegas, but I just don't understand why.


Animal and environmental concerns are typically the main reasons for going veg.

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Saellys
Vintage Newbie


olimario wrote:
Lots of cases of malnutrition in the children of vegans.
Typically from poorly planned vegan diets.


You said it was a serious issue among vegans and vegetarians, and now you're limiting it to the children of vegans due to poor dietary planning. So how exactly does this invalidate Tyler's point that a well-balanced vegetarian diet (which is, I can testify from seven months of pregnancy, surprisingly easy to achieve) results in proper nutrition and good health?

By the way, poor dietary planning (which can also be interpreted as poverty) leads to malnutrition in the children of non-vegans too.

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wilsmith
Vintage Newbie


Evil Wil (O'reilly)

I'll answer all these contentions:

Give a man a Fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to farm, and he'll kill, maybe even eat, whatever animals that think his crops are good to eat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?" -
-- Homer Simpson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

More to the point, in a world without supplements, without the conveniences of industrialization, just how easy would it be to not be malnourished as a strict vegan.

And at the risk of being overly controversial, who long would a population carry on in good genetic health if you had two couples that weren't related, of each "race" based on our standard perceptions of them, to procreate and carry on populating the species on a distant vegetated but unpopulated planet, and upheld anti-miscegenation laws as they were once understood? They would be Inbreeding within a generation of arrival.

Apply the scenario and restrictions to a strictly homosexual population. They would die off without procreating.

The point is, hard rules about what you should and shouldn't do in nature are sometimes modern byproducts of human ingenuity and a certain level of detachment from the basic tenets of survival.

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Non Evil Wil

Just because we can do something, doesn't mean that we should. And I know that applies to pro & anti omnivore stances. Just consider this: Is there a known population of homo sapiens that migrated to a place where there were no animals to consume, or ones in tow? Doesn't make it right, but the Inuit people live in the harshest climate known to man, and do so as nearly strict carnivores. Been that way for 1000s of years and is a good analog for how humans lived in the pre-agricultural period of our existence as the migrated and seasons changed, limiting their capacity to gather. Homo Sapien might as well translate to "Follows food around, thinks of clever ways to catch and preserve it." And Civilization might as well mean, "Figures out how to use food to get more food."

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Saellys
Vintage Newbie


wilsmith wrote:
More to the point, in a world without supplements, without the conveniences of industrialization, just how easy would it be to not be malnourished as a strict vegan.


That's not actually to the point at all, since thus far the discussion about malnutrition has been hypothetically limited (by virtue of not talking about other circumstances) to the developed first world.

But, since you asked, Masanobu Fukuoka was one staunch advocate of a diet consisting only of locally available in-season crops, and his method of permaculture was pretty similar to how it was done by our earliest farming ancestors. He died of "natural causes" (not malnutrition, I'm guessing) at age 95. I think he mentioned keeping hens in The One Straw Revolution, though, so he probably wasn't strictly vegan.

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wilsmith
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whew! I thought you had me cold right there Laughing

Saved by the yardbird.

I should have said what I thought the point was before I went and tried to get to it:

I thought the point was, as implied by Tahruh's evidence about jawbones and digestion vs. Olimario's arguments about malnutrition, that by nature, Humans are predisposed to be best served by one particular diet or another. Meat being a part of that diet is under debate. So I'm just trying to strip back the argument to that, what works best based on our natural biological condition sans our ability to manipulation it with science.

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