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 Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 12:43 am 
Quote: then can you explain why i'm going to hell even though I haven't done anything to warrant it? I call myself Christian, at least partially, so I will try to give you an answer as I see it. The point is to lead a good life, do good things. I still don't buy into the fact that a man can be an Atheist who gives copiously to charities at the expense of his own pockets and volunteers time for various organizations all his life is still going to Hell. I say that he still gets a chance, could be when he dies he will get his final opportunity. Maybe the man never saw anything in his life to make him believe, but he led a saintly good life anyway. That is (pun now) one hell of a pure soul to waste in eternal damnation. So yes, I saw at judgement he gets a chance to believe and get a reward. So I would say that no, if you do nothing wrong then you aren't doomed straight for Hell. It is still possible but not a certain. _________________ Audioscrobbler Now 
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 12:56 am
Paranoid Android v2.0 wrote: Quote: then can you explain why i'm going to hell even though I haven't done anything to warrant it? I call myself Christian, at least partially, so I will try to give you an answer as I see it. The point is to lead a good life, do good things. I still don't buy into the fact that a man can be an Atheist who gives copiously to charities at the expense of his own pockets and volunteers time for various organizations all his life is still going to Hell. I say that he still gets a chance, could be when he dies he will get his final opportunity. Maybe the man never saw anything in his life to make him believe, but he led a saintly good life anyway. That is (pun now) one hell of a pure soul to waste in eternal damnation. So yes, I saw at judgement he gets a chance to believe and get a reward. So I would say that no, if you do nothing wrong then you aren't doomed straight for Hell. It is still possible but not a certain. thankyou,that makes so much more sense to me although I feel it's going to be debated now...but for what it's worth thats more along the lines I'm thinking. _________________ 
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 1:05 am
Of course it will be debated...but we have all heard stories or at least rumours of a human being who confesses and repents on their deathbed. Same thing really. _________________ Audioscrobbler Now
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 2:09 am
well, sure! if you do absolutely nothing wrong in your entire life, then sure you won't go to hell. unfortunately, that's impossible. everybody sins, guys. and the thing is ... you believe in heaven and hell, right? somebody had to create that. God created heaven and earth and us. do you honestly think someone can be like "oh well i didn't believe in you while i was alive, but i was a good person most of the time, so can i hang out with you for eternity anyway?" it doesn't work like that. simply being a "good person" doesn't get you into heaven, for the simple reason that you'll never be good enough to merit that on your own. i'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, and undoubtedly it doesn't make sense. God wants you to be happy. he wants you in heaven, and he wants to forgive you. he offers that, but mostly... people are just too proud to accept that. everybody wants to believe they can do it on their own. but you can't. _________________ Facebook & Twitter & Blog(ish)-type thing |
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:52 am
Paranoid Android v2.0 wrote: Quote: then can you explain why i'm going to hell even though I haven't done anything to warrant it? I call myself Christian, at least partially, so I will try to give you an answer as I see it. The point is to lead a good life, do good things. I still don't buy into the fact that a man can be an Atheist who gives copiously to charities at the expense of his own pockets and volunteers time for various organizations all his life is still going to Hell. I say that he still gets a chance, could be when he dies he will get his final opportunity. Maybe the man never saw anything in his life to make him believe, but he led a saintly good life anyway. That is (pun now) one hell of a pure soul to waste in eternal damnation. So yes, I saw at judgement he gets a chance to believe and get a reward. So I would say that no, if you do nothing wrong then you aren't doomed straight for Hell. It is still possible but not a certain. Why would someone that doesnt believe in God, want to spend eternity with God. Maybe because of the alternative... Biblically, the point is not to lead a "good life". It is to love God with all your heart, and to treat your neighbor as you would yourself. We arent saved by "works",meaning our actions , but we are saved by faith through works. Meaning, I can say I love God and not show it in my actions, but it isnt real until I say I love God and then show it in my actions. God is a god of love. _________________ Baby alligators in the sewers grow up fast... |
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 6:51 am
i go to church, and I have already debated this very same subject on this very same message board long ago. I will refrain _________________ If you wanna go on a picnic, I'll bring the watermelon. |
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:43 am
Liam, I disagree, We are saved by faith, and faith alone. These "works," or actions as you call them, are a product of that faith. I believe a lie can be as destuctive as a murder, though it is hard for me to see them as the same. You know, I'm glad humans aren't judges of one's eternal home. If God is gonna set a standard by which all must follow to enter Heaven, being sinless, then any sin compromises that standard. To consider an entity such as God is to consider a person that is beyond us, that is unbiased, and weighs every sin the same. If God were to compromise, that would make Him a sinner. Since God cannot sin, His standard is never compromised. God realized this, and provided a way to pass this standard. That way is throug His Son, Jesus Christ. That is what is so amazing about God. He loves everyone, from the liar to the mass murderer, and has forgiven both. He's forgiven everyone of their sins, it's a matter of accepting that forgiveness, accepting the fact that humans can do nothing by themselves to merit entry into Heaven. That's the whole purpose of Jesus dying on the cross, he paid the price that God required for those that sinned, which is everyone, past, present, and future. Paul, Nick, I appreciate your questions and responses. I love to hear your viewpoints. It helps me to see where you're coming from. _________________ signed: Omygosh, Emperor of Shmo **the turtle stamp of approval** www.soulstrum.com |
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:49 am
joseph wrote: Liam, I disagree, We are saved by faith, and faith alone. These "works," or actions as you call them, are a product of that faith.
Well, that was basically what I was trying to say. In Romans, Paul talks about this extensively. I should read it again. _________________ Baby alligators in the sewers grow up fast... |
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:54 am
I would love to comment on this right now, but I won't have time to get it all out right now, so I'm going to copy and paste an old journal entres ive written: (this is from an interview with Norman Geisler) "Geisler, one of whose hobbies is collecting quotes from atheists, agnostics, pointed out something else Russell (an atheist) said, "He was asked in a LOOK magazine interview, Under what condition would you believe in God, and he essentially said, "Well if I heard a voice from heaven and it predicted a series of things and they came to pass, then I guess I'd have to believe there's some kind of supernatural being." In light of our discussion about the miraculous fulfillment of predictive prophecies in the Bible, the irony in Russell's statement was obvious. "I'd say, Mr Russell, there HAS been a voice from heaven, it has predicted many things, and we've seen them undeniable come to pass," Geisler declared "Then you don't think God is making it hard to believe?" I asked "On the contrary, the evidence is there if people will be willing to see it. It's not for a lack of evidence that people turn from God; it's from their pride or their will. God is not going to force anyone into the fold. Love never works coercively. It only works persuasively. And there's plenty of persuasive evidence there." I just thought that was a nice quote and way to sum up how some people will do anything to steer away from believing in God, in that same chapter it also said it's easier to find an atheist philosopher than an atheist physicist becuase science is pointing towards God more and more with new discoveries. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The truth seems so obvious...It only takes casual study and maybe a little research to clear any doubts in your mind. Some people choose to search their whole lives for something to fill the void in their hearts. They feel like their life is missing something. Instead of turning to God for help, they turn to philosophies of men. I don't understand why you would choose to follow something that has no end, and leads to no fulfillment. I have no need to search for answers, I feel no void in my soul, I feel complete. Some may question that by asking ridiculous questions that try to eat away at my faith and belief. Some people will do anything they can to steer away from the truth that is with God. If ever you doubt the existence of God, research everything that is written with an open mind. You may think it's impossible for you ever to believe but it's not. Almost every book I've read lately has been written by scholars who went to high school and college, studying various scientific subjects, all of them atheist or agnostic. In most cases either a friend or student asks for proof that God does not exist. This would seem easy for someone who believes that evolution is a "fact" cuz that's what most people are taught. In every occassion as the person began to try and disprove God or disprove Jesus they find themselves stuck and forced to make a decision. They can either look at the evidence before them and submit to God or they can choose to ignore it and go on believing in a lie. I wish that all of you could read some of the stuff I have lately, I honestly believe it would change your life. The Bible is the best book in the world, but some people will never pick up a Bible because they don't believe it is valid, people tell them not to trust it, it's just more religious crap to make you feel better, there are many ways to God, blah blah blah. After studying and reading comments from historians, scientists, psychologists, and others I have no doubt in my mind that everything I believe is true. I will never physically be able to prove God to anyone, but I do have physical proof in my life. My interactions with God are real, my interaction with the Holy Spirit is real and no one can say that it is not. I long for everyone to feel the way I do, it's so great to have full trust in something and have no fears about life. I dont' have to ponder whether there is life after death, I don't have to wonder if there is a God, I KNOW there is. I know I'm starting to sound like a Xanga preacher now, and that may aggrevate some people, but I'm willing to accept any ridicule. I love you all. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The world leads to claustrophobia when you begin to think about everything that makes up this place. We are surrounded by "feel good solutions" to just about any problem that may arise, the only drawback is that these "solutions" end up taking as farther down a path that eventually leads to inner destruction. On top of that, these escapes from our "horrible, sad, depressing, pitiful, (fill in another common term)" lives are only temporary and end up hurting us more than they help. Whenever someone talks about this subject he or she is met with strong opinions, accused of being "narrow minded" and many other worse things. This leads to the question, How do you make a difference? How does one person take a stand in a world so full of evil? How can there be any hope for all the people you care about that choose to seek happiness in life by diving into pools of fire? ... Jesus found a way, but even mentioning that name turns some people away. I long for the understanding, I know that the only way to accomplish the goals I have set for my life is through the power of God. I'm not hear to preach to anyone, I just want to present an alternate view, something not available in school. After reading a few books and thinking about what I've learned through experiences in my life, I've come to realize that there is a way out of this worldly illusion. All it takes is putting faith in God. You can't escape faith, even if you don't believe there is a God, faith is still a part of your life, like it or not. You either have faith that the world was created by Energy, eternal energy that was just hear and acted on a bunch of particles and created everything you see, or you have faith that God created all. Neither can be proven with science, some of you may argue that evolution is a fact and only idiots who have no scientific knowledge believe it didn't happen. That is ridiculous, actually there is more scientific evidence against evolution. (I'm talking about Macroevolution, not microevolution or adaption which is obviously real). I'm done ranting today, most of you don't want to hear this, but I refuse to shield my beliefs. Love is the answer... --------- I wrote all these a few months back when I was struggling with issues concerning God and Christianity. Since then I've read a lot of stuff, prayed a lot and talked to a lot of people, I feel totally confident that God is real, Jesus died for all of us and we do have a hope. God Bless you all _________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WWW.MODICOMUSIC.COM www.myspace.com/modico "even on the drearest day a loving hand won't turn away God's greatest gift to man how sweet is love" http://www.myspace.com/ambientgecko - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 2:57 pm
homesick_alien wrote: Ecouter wrote: homesick_alien wrote: so much for acceptance huh? now you know how God feels when you reject his offer to forgive you for every wrong thing you've ever done. seeing as i never asked "god" for any forgiveness I fail to see how that would offend him.Secondly so you're saying any person on this entire earth who doesn't have the same religious views as you is ALL going to hell? to me that is just unbelievably wrong...If your god can't take people on their merit and by which I mean the way they live their lives then I can't see it being anything but a bias.....you're basically saying sinning and repenting is ok as long as you're a christian and everyone else has no chance of going anywhere but hell UNLESS they do as we do I'm staying with squirly if thats the case im not done reading this thread yet. i still have a few pages left to go. i just wanted to comment on this. they're absolutely right when they say that its totally wrong if people think being "saved" is a free ticket to sin. but the truth is that in the bible it states that if you are saved and continue to sin willingly, then you're not truly saved. im not saying that the verse is saying once you're saved you have to be perfect, because the bible also mentions god's understanding of human nature and our weaknesses. i think that verse is more saying "if you're saved, then you have the desire to live a better life. if you want to go about not changing anything in your life, then you're not truly saved". there is only one "unforgivable sin" that god sends people to hell for. and that is blasphemy of the holy spirit, which, is denying god and his existence. God sent Jesus to the earth to die for our sins. even though all humans are unworthy of god's grace because of our sins, thats why we are forgiven because our sins were taken to the cross with jesus. the only thing people have to do is to accept christ and his sacrifice for us, and to ask forgiveness. that doesnt mean we wont screw up every once in a while, but by being "saved" you are trying to accept god's gift of forgiveness, create a realtionship with god through prayer and worship, and eventually give back to god with praises and witnessing and stuff. someone could lead a nearly perfect life, but the truth is that we're humans and humans are born into this world as sinners. the only way of being saved from this sin is to accept and believe that jesus died for our sins. if you deny it, or dont accept this, then the theory is that the punishment is hell. _________________ A woman without a man is like a fish...without a bicycle. www.xanga.com/wasteofrain www.xanga.com/frozenlemon my new webpage: www.geocities.com/wasteofrain |
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 3:12 pm
Ecouter wrote: well, sure! if you do absolutely nothing wrong in your entire life, then sure you won't go to hell. unfortunately, that's impossible. everybody sins, guys. and the thing is ... you believe in heaven and hell, right? somebody had to create that. God created heaven and earth and us. do you honestly think someone can be like "oh well i didn't believe in you while i was alive, but i was a good person most of the time, so can i hang out with you for eternity anyway?" it doesn't work like that. simply being a "good person" doesn't get you into heaven, for the simple reason that you'll never be good enough to merit that on your own. i'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, and undoubtedly it doesn't make sense. God wants you to be happy. he wants you in heaven, and he wants to forgive you. he offers that, but mostly... people are just too proud to accept that. everybody wants to believe they can do it on their own. but you can't. very well said another point i wanted to make.. people keep saying that "mass murderers and rapists" can get into heaven if they are simply "saved". the point is, they cannot just say their "saved". trust me, god knows their hearts and He knows if they are truly saved and truly want to accept and believe in christ. if they truly do want christ in their lives, then god changes them. he wipes their slate clean. and the amazing thing is, you know what? they're no longer "rapists" or "murderers". they're now "christians". theres a bible verse that says "i will create a new heaven and a new earth" and mainly people associtae this with armageddon, but you can also think of it like, god will create a new heaven and a new eath within you, and all things in you will be made new. people cant do this on their own. it takes god. _________________ A woman without a man is like a fish...without a bicycle. www.xanga.com/wasteofrain www.xanga.com/frozenlemon my new webpage: www.geocities.com/wasteofrain |
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Post subject: Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:58 pm
first of all I'm not getting into this religious arguement again however i just want to make a final point Basically the way your religion works from the posts that you guys make is you do things 100% gods way with NO room for any kind of compromise or he sends you to hell,now I'm sorry I will never ever understand that. I just have a few questions then I'm outta here for good do all of you guys ask for forgiveness about EVERY single sin you ever make?...if so you either have a good memory or walk around with a palm pilot writing them down all day long...and what happens should you either forget or just don't ask for your forgivess about EVERY single thing?...I mean by your standards you havent accepted gods forgiveness for those sins and therefore should go to hell,right? or do you guys have a loophole for yourselves because you have an 90% forgiveness rate or something (I know i sound like I'm being a smartass there but i'm truly not...whats the deal? I don't understand it)? and what about say ...muslims,they don't pray to your god so in your eyes do all muslims on this earth go to hell? Thanks *exits for the last time* _________________
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Post subject: Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 2:51 am
Hey Paul, I completely understand your doubts about all of this, because I've experienced many of them myself. Since the whole basis of the need for salvation is the fact that we'll always be imperfect as humans on this planet, our actions themselves won't be what determines where we're headed. All that God requires is that we believe he sent Jesus to the cross in our place so that we won't have to suffer the consequences of our sin if we just accept him. If we really believe that this is true, I think this does lead to a desire to want to be more like Him. Like it's been said a few times, this is not to say that we'll be perfect; it's simply a change of heart that results in a change in actions. As for your second group of questions, those are good ones, too. I believe that that is sort of one of the points about the fact that we need forgiveness: we can't even begin to remember or even realize what things we've done are sins. What I've always known to do is to repent for all of your sins, knowing that you're never perfect even if you have good intentions most of the time. Where "huge" things like killing, stealing, or whatever come in, those will obviously come to mind if you want forgiveness, but "smaller" things like fibbing or something might not be remembered. I agree with you in not understanding how killing someone and lying to someone could be considered on the same level, but what I think it is is that it's not a matter of how bad your sins are from a worldly point of view, but just the fact that you've fallen short of what God originally intended. On the topic of Muslims, I don't believe that they can be saved unless they accept that Jesus came to save us. He said that he was the only way to the Father, so that leads me to believe that those who don't accept that won't be saved. The tough part for me is people who never really get a chance to hear the accurate story of what Jesus did for them, as I can't imagine that God would simply send those people to Hell if they've never even been told the truth (if it is, in fact, the truth). Anyway, I don't know if any of this helped; I hope it at least answered some of your questions a bit... I still have a lot of issues that I have to work through, so that's part of the reason I've mostly stayed out of this debate. However, I thought it was important for me to chime in and try to give you some answers to things you're wondering about since I have wondered/am wondering many of those same things... Ben |
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Post subject: Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:35 am
Quote: All that God requires is that we believe he sent Jesus to the cross in our place so that we won't have to suffer the consequences of our sin if we just accept him. Paul, when we accept God's forgiveness through the crucifixion of Jesus, we are saved. We cannot lose salvation. But, as you know we aren't perfect, and still continue to screw up. Sins that are committed after salvation don't relinquish that salvation, but God is a relational God, He enjoys interacting with people, listening to them, talking to them. To get closer to God, one must engage in an active relationship with Him. When we confess our sins to Him, we are engaging in a relationship with Him. Think about a friend. If you broke that friend's TV, to be a good friend, you would tell them about it. See, God knows every sin one commits. But, He still wants to hear about it. Why? Because, He's a relational God, He desires to interact with humans. _________________ signed: Omygosh, Emperor of Shmo **the turtle stamp of approval** www.soulstrum.com |
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Post subject: Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 9:16 am
homesick_alien wrote: Basically the way your religion works from the posts that you guys make is you do things 100% gods way with NO room for any kind of compromise or he sends you to hell,
...and what happens should you either forget or just don't ask for your forgivess about EVERY single thing?...I mean by your standards you havent accepted gods forgiveness for those sins and therefore should go to hell,right? * -anybody who is truly saved does not go to hell. -you accept god's forgiveness BY getting saved. the day that you decide to believe in christ and his sacrifice is the day you are forgiven for your sins. you might fall every once in a while and sin after you're saved, but the deal with being saved is that you usually appologize for your sin. if you accidentally leave some sins out when you pray, you wont go to hell, because anyone saved wont go to hell. plus, god knows your heart and he knows if you truly want your all your sins forgiven and he'll know if you just forgot to mention a few. _________________ A woman without a man is like a fish...without a bicycle. www.xanga.com/wasteofrain www.xanga.com/frozenlemon my new webpage: www.geocities.com/wasteofrain |
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Laughing City Forum Index -> General -> do you go to church?
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